一個(gè)是意大利建筑與城市研究院教授

一個(gè)是中國(guó)城市更新與文化復(fù)興專(zhuān)家

這是一次古建筑保護(hù)與技術(shù)的分享

更是一次中外建筑文化保育的碰撞

【分享】

6月28日，意大利米蘭理工大學(xué)建筑與城市學(xué)院建筑遺產(chǎn)保護(hù)專(zhuān)業(yè)教授，建筑與景觀遺產(chǎn)保護(hù)、木構(gòu)建筑保護(hù)診斷專(zhuān)家Francesco Augelli到訪永信和瑞，與設(shè)計(jì)總監(jiān)楊建覺(jué)及設(shè)計(jì)團(tuán)隊(duì)成員進(jìn)行了一場(chǎng)有高度、有深度、更有細(xì)節(jié)的學(xué)術(shù)對(duì)話(huà)。

雙方圍繞意大利古建筑保護(hù)經(jīng)驗(yàn)、當(dāng)下中國(guó)古建筑保護(hù)面臨的問(wèn)題、文化遺存的保育與活化辦法，進(jìn)行了深度交流。大家十分認(rèn)可意大利人對(duì)待古建筑保護(hù)的真誠(chéng)態(tài)度和嚴(yán)謹(jǐn)技術(shù)，期待雙方未來(lái)有合作的機(jī)會(huì)。

Francesco Augelli

【對(duì)話(huà)】

楊建覺(jué)：古建筑的保護(hù)與研究，從信息采集角度而言，更看重社會(huì)層面還是技術(shù)層面？

JJ?Yang: Regarding the preservation and research of historic buildings, are the social or technical aspects more important in information collection?

Francesco Augelli：關(guān)于我的專(zhuān)業(yè)和研究經(jīng)驗(yàn)，我首先會(huì)考慮項(xiàng)目的特性。如果項(xiàng)目側(cè)重于城市尺度，比如一個(gè)歷史名城的保護(hù)和管理類(lèi)的大型項(xiàng)目，我的方法將是從歷史研究開(kāi)始，其次是社會(huì)研究，它包括居住者的特點(diǎn)（數(shù)量、年齡、性別、職業(yè)等），SWOT分析，習(xí)慣、風(fēng)俗、生活方式、需求和其他社會(huì)方面。

如果該城市保護(hù)項(xiàng)目也將側(cè)重于重要的歷史建筑層面，或者客戶(hù)的要求是關(guān)于歷史建筑的保護(hù)和再利用設(shè)計(jì)，在這種情況下，它將使用歷史建筑保護(hù)的方法直接把側(cè)重點(diǎn)更多地轉(zhuǎn)換到技術(shù)層面，開(kāi)始形成深入的了解（歷史和現(xiàn)狀研究），圖繪和信息收集，最終以這些為基礎(chǔ)，進(jìn)入保護(hù)和適應(yīng)性再利用設(shè)計(jì)階段。

Francesco?Augelli: Regarding my professional and research experience, I consider the characteristics of the requested project. If the project is focused on the urban scale, similar to a large project like the conservation and management of a historical town, my approach would be to start with historical knowledge, to the social research, including characteristics of the inhabitants (number, age, gender, occupations, and so on), the SWOT analysis, habits, customs, lifestyles, needs and other social aspects.

If we suppose the urban conservation will also be then focused on important historical buildings or the request of the client is about a historical building preservation and reuse design, in that case, it will be directed to switch to the technical level of preservation, using the methodology of historical architecture conservation starting to form the in-depth knowledge (historical and of the current condition), mapping and information collection and finally, based on them, to the preservation and adaptive reuse project.

楊建覺(jué)：您眼中，當(dāng)下中國(guó)的古城、古鎮(zhèn)、古村、古建筑物的保護(hù)與復(fù)興處于什么水平？存在哪些需要特別留神的地方？

JJ Yang: What is, in your opinion, the current level of preservation and renewal of historic towns and buildings in China? What are the issues that need to pay more attention to?

Francesco Augelli：我曾多次到過(guò)湖南。就目前而言，湖南有些地方對(duì)歷史建筑的干預(yù)需要多尊重歷史文化遺產(chǎn)的真實(shí)性。在修復(fù)過(guò)程中，建筑所呈現(xiàn)的不同時(shí)期的原始?xì)v史痕跡都被抹去，人們把建筑翻新得煥然一新。經(jīng)常有歷史建筑被拆除或完全改變，抑或新做的假古董取代了原來(lái)的外觀，而不尊重歷史建筑真實(shí)性的時(shí)間因素。

意大利人一直堅(jiān)持歷史建筑的真實(shí)性、兼容性、可識(shí)別性和最小的干預(yù)原則，以消除衰變的成因，修復(fù)建筑的殘損，而不是覆蓋或取代歷史建筑的歷史痕跡，做一些沒(méi)有必要的改變。自上個(gè)世紀(jì)七十年代以來(lái)，意大利建立了一個(gè)相對(duì)完整的歷史建筑保護(hù)理論和方法體系，它匯集了各行各業(yè)的專(zhuān)業(yè)人士都來(lái)參與到這樣一個(gè)復(fù)雜的項(xiàng)目（保護(hù)）中。

我希望在未來(lái)，中國(guó)甚至湖南會(huì)有類(lèi)似的關(guān)于歷史建筑的認(rèn)知、技術(shù)、科學(xué)方法來(lái)保護(hù)，包括那些文革時(shí)期的建筑，即使是現(xiàn)代的，也是中國(guó)和中國(guó)人民偉大歷史的重要組成部分。

Francesco Augelli: I have visited Hunan many times. For the moment, there are some places in Hunan where too frequently, the intervention in historical buildings needs to respect the authenticity of cultural relics. In the restoration, the original historical traces of the different periods are all wiped out, refurbishing the building to look brand new. Frequently the historic buildings are demolished or completely changed, or newly made fake antiques replace the original appearance without respecting the time element of historical buildings authenticity.

The Italians have always insisted on authenticity, compatibility, recognizability and minimal intervention to remove the causes of deterioration and fix the damages to the building rather than covering or replacing the compatible historical traces of the historic buildings with no necessary changes. Since the Seventies, Italy has established a relatively complete theoretical and methodological system for the conservation of historical buildings with the participation of all walks of the competencies involved in such a complex project (preservation).

I hope that in the next future, also China and Hunan will have a similar methodological approach to knowledge and technical and scientific approach to the historical buildings, including also the ones of the Cultural Revolution that are important, even if modern, parts of the great history of China and Chinese People.

楊建覺(jué)：中國(guó)古建筑種類(lèi)繁多、規(guī)模龐大、分布廣泛，如何對(duì)這些古建筑進(jìn)行保護(hù)的同時(shí)進(jìn)行活化再利用，使其產(chǎn)生更高的社會(huì)與經(jīng)濟(jì)價(jià)值？而這種價(jià)值又能更好地促進(jìn)古建筑保護(hù)。也許這是個(gè)難題。

JJ Yang: Chinese historical buildings are diverse, large in scale and widely distributed. How can these historical buildings be conserved and,?at the same time,?adaptively reused so that they can generate a higher social and economic value? And this value can better promote the conservation of historic?buildings. This may be?a complex?problem.

Francesco Augelli：我在意大利教我的學(xué)生的如何平衡各利益相關(guān)者的需求。例如，如果我們修復(fù)一座寺廟，那么它的功能將保持為一座寺廟，即使最終將為游客增加必要的服務(wù)。但如果它是一個(gè)歷史悠久的住宅建筑，它也將被認(rèn)為是必要的補(bǔ)充。另外，在這種情況下，最基本的一點(diǎn)是，歷史建筑的再利用應(yīng)該適當(dāng)?shù)剡m應(yīng)該建筑的歷史價(jià)值，而不是相反。當(dāng)然，應(yīng)該考慮現(xiàn)代化和更新服務(wù)。例如，在修復(fù)歷史上的住宅時(shí)，廁所、廚房、電力、空調(diào)、保溫等等都會(huì)被認(rèn)為是適當(dāng)匹配的。

我們教誨的主題是，我們必須尊重真實(shí)性（不同于 "原始 "的含義），尊重歷史建筑的價(jià)值，同樣要平衡當(dāng)代日常生活的功能需求。數(shù)據(jù)分析和需求調(diào)研是通過(guò)利益相關(guān)者的參與和同意來(lái)完成的。利益相關(guān)者包括了國(guó)家機(jī)關(guān)、地州市政府、業(yè)主/客戶(hù)、開(kāi)發(fā)商、設(shè)計(jì)公司、建筑商和投資者，他們對(duì)數(shù)據(jù)進(jìn)行分析，并得出結(jié)論和植入功能的建議。

Francesco Augelli: What I teach my students in Italy is how to balance the needs of the stakeholders. For example, if we restore a temple, then its functions will remain as a temple even if will be eventually necessary additions of services for the visitors. But if it is a historical residential building, it will also be considered the essential additions. Also, in this case, the most fundamental point is that the reuse of a historical building should be appropriately adapted to the historical value of the building and not the contrary. Of course, modernization and updating of services should be considered. For example, when restoring a historical residential house, the toilets, kitchen, electricity, conditioning, insulation and so on will be regarded as properly compatible.

The theme of our teachings is that we must respect authenticity (different from the meaning of "original"), the value of historic buildings, and equally balance the functional needs of contemporary daily life. The data analysis and needs are done by going through the involvement and agreement of the stakeholders, which covers the government, municipality, the owner/client, the developer, the design firm, the builder, and the investor, which analyses the data, and draws conclusions and implants the functions proposals.

任子?。簞偛沤淌谔岬皆诮ㄖＷo(hù)工作中，意大利和中國(guó)過(guò)去對(duì)待木結(jié)構(gòu)的保護(hù)方法有很大差異，具體體現(xiàn)在哪些方面？現(xiàn)在對(duì)木結(jié)構(gòu)的理解正在逐步靠攏，又具體表現(xiàn)在哪些方面？

Ren Zijian:The professor also mentioned significant differences between the Italian and Chinese approaches to wood structures in preserving buildings in the past. In what aspects? Nowadays, the understanding of wood structure is gradually approaching, and in what aspects?

Francesco Augelli：這是個(gè)好問(wèn)題。我只了解湖南的情況，而不是整個(gè)中國(guó)的情況。當(dāng)我2009年來(lái)到湖南時(shí)，我看到當(dāng)?shù)貙?duì)歷史建筑的處理方法是一旦發(fā)現(xiàn)它們被破壞，就用新的來(lái)代替，而且他們還是在沒(méi)有科學(xué)診斷的情況下就這樣做。在意大利，方法是不同的。像醫(yī)生或偵探一樣，我們一步一步地進(jìn)行診斷，一般來(lái)說(shuō)，是對(duì)歷史建筑的間接和直接的了解。 在建筑現(xiàn)狀調(diào)研的工作過(guò)程中，當(dāng)我們?cè)谠趯ふ揖€索的基礎(chǔ)上進(jìn)行適當(dāng)?shù)恼{(diào)查后，我們可以使用儀器來(lái)獲取定性和定量的數(shù)據(jù)，再通過(guò)專(zhuān)家的正確理解和解釋?zhuān)试S我們對(duì)木質(zhì)結(jié)構(gòu)（也包括其他材料）進(jìn)行診斷，并以正確的療法進(jìn)行治療。例如，如果存在昆蟲(chóng)或霉菌，我們會(huì)給它充分的治療并保護(hù)木材。所以在最初，我們需要正確地確定哪些地方是不可逆轉(zhuǎn)的損壞，不能治療，必須以兼容和可逆的方式來(lái)更換。

正如我以前說(shuō)過(guò)的，中國(guó)處理木結(jié)構(gòu)的方法是漫無(wú)邊際地直接拆除舊構(gòu)件或整個(gè)建筑，然后用新的構(gòu)件取代它們。而目前的做法是，大家更傾向于只拆除老化的部分，以及只替換無(wú)法恢復(fù)的部分。但是即便如此也仍然存在問(wèn)題，那就是如今負(fù)責(zé)施工的工人們是沒(méi)有得到充分的培訓(xùn)的。畢竟，他們只是普通的建筑工人。從施工質(zhì)量成果的角度來(lái)看，木匠應(yīng)該在基于最小干預(yù)原則的維修中做得更好。

Francesco Augelli: That's a good question. I know the situation in Hunan, not the whole of China. When I came to Hunan in 2009, the approach to historic buildings was to replace them with new ones when they were damaged, and they did this without a scientific diagnosis that permitted them to say if it was recoverable or not. In Italy, the approach is different. Like doctors or detectives, we perform the diagnosis step by step and, in general, the indirect and direct knowledge of the historic building. In the work process of the current condition of the building, after the proper investigation based on the searching of clues, we can use instruments to achieve qualitative and quantitative data that, properly understood and interpreted by experts, permit us to diagnose the wood structure (but also other materials) and treat it with the right therapy. For example, if insects or fungi exist, we will adequately treat and protect the timbers. First of all, we need to determine correctly which areas are irreversibly damaged, cannot be treated, and must be replaced in a compatible and reversible way.

As I said before, the Chinese approach to wooden structures was diffusely to remove the old elements or the whole building directly and replaces them with new ones. The current approach is, more and more, to remove only the deteriorated part to replace just the unrecoverable portions. But there are still problems because the workers are too frequently not trained adequately. After all, they are ordinary building workers. Carpenters should do a better job from a quality result point of view in the minimal intervention repairs.

意大利米蘭理工大學(xué)教授Francesco Augelli助理何昳慧、湖南大學(xué)建筑與規(guī)劃學(xué)院謝菲教授、永信和瑞建筑設(shè)計(jì)院長(zhǎng)羅朝陽(yáng)，城鄉(xiāng)規(guī)劃院長(zhǎng)楊一美、副院長(zhǎng)康承軍、總工程師任子健、副總建筑師李愿參加了對(duì)話(huà)。

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